Tun Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad
Jacklynn Chao:
Dr. Mahatar thank youfor joining us on Meet the Boss TV. NowTun you are the longest serving Prime Minister of Malaysia. You are one of Asia’s most influentialleaders. Now you spearheaded thephenomenal growth of Malaysia’s economy. In fact your foresight and vision have been credited with much ofMalaysia’s success. So what lessons canyou share with business leaders about setting a vision?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well first of all, ofcourse, you must think about things which are achievable. It may be a little bit extraordinary but theymust be achievable. You must know how tomanage it in order to achieve the final – the success that you expect. Of course, you need also to have a good teamto work with you and I think, of course, you have to have the knowledge to dothose things. You understand them verywell otherwise I think if you just make a decision and leave it to others toimplement then it’s not going to succeed.
Jacklynn Chao:
Interesting that youmentioned – interesting that you mentioned about knowledge and as well asknowing about the success because you once said, “To be a great leader oneneeds to have good strategies, be knowledgeable and able to predict thefuture.” Now are these three qualitiesyou think also necessary to be a great business leader?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah, certainly theyare. Yeah.
Jacklynn Chao:
So now I’m especiallycurious about the last part where you said, “Predict the future.” How does one predict the future?
Dr. Mahatar:
Oh well if you lookback at the – towards the past and you see certain trends and you know thatthese trends will probably continue and as a result of these trends what willbe the changes within the environment in which you are operating then you willknow not precisely but more or less what would be likely the scenario be in thefuture.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how can one bestprepare themselves in order to predict and what can business leaders do toprepare themselves?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well when you plansomething in the future you need to have some conviction. At the same time, of course, you must beprepared to take risks. You may fail butthen before you fail you should think that you would have some plan B, plan Ckind of thing so that if the – your strategy fails then you can adopt plan Band also make corrective decisions along the way.
Jacklynn Chao:
Now it’s interestingyou mention taking risk and having a plan B or C. Do you have an example perhaps that you couldgive me, like when do you take a risk then after that perhaps it didn’t go sowell then you went on to plan B or C?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well when we started,it was a very risky business. Of course,it could fail but if it fails then we need to have – take some drastic actionto provide people some protection, but fortunately that was not necessary. We were able to provide minimal protectionand the thing was a success. But I’vebeen fortunate in that most of the plans that I put in place have worked outquite well.
Jacklynn Chao:
How about someperhaps that didn’t achieve as much as you intended them to achieve? Is there any one that would come to mind?
Dr. Mahatar:
No. On the contrary. I think I achieve more because the people whoare with us to carry out the plan they have bigger ideas than I had. For example, when we decided to have an airshow in Langkawi I was thinking of a show for small aircrafts but people whowere asked to implement this project, the Langkawi Maritime and Air Show theywent ahead and started spreading the word and people wanted to exhibit fighterplanes and bombers and other military hardware.
We should also have amaritime show. So in the end, of course,it become one of the air shows on the calendar of the world.
Jacklynn Chao:
It is so interestingthat you mention about how you had a team that actually dreamed bigger than youbecause as a leader it’s so important to have a good team around you. So what advice can you give to businessleaders in terms of how you create that winning team?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well you have totrust in people. I think you’re changingpeople every now and again because you are not satisfied with them is notreally the way to manage people. Youhave to get the people working for you to understand your – what you have inmind and to tell them how to carry out things. That’s better than changing people because when you change people youare up against having to accommodate somebody else that you are not familiar withand that creates a problem. My team hasstayed with me or some of the people who work with me has stayed with me forover 30 years.
Jacklynn Chao:
30 years?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yes. They are still with me even today.
Jacklynn Chao:
Wow. So how do you keep them with you for 30years?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well is a matter ofhow you conduct your relationship with them. I mean you mustn’t be too bossy but you must establish a goodrelationship so that they look upon you not just as a boss but someone they canrelate to.
Jacklynn Chao:
So describe what kindof relationship you have with your team members.
Dr. Mahatar:
Well I treat themlike my friends and no matter what rung they are they may be just a securityofficer, for example, but I treat them as my friends. I talk with them. I discuss things with them.
Jacklynn Chao:
Which is interestingbecause how about times when managing a team sometimes the team members mightnot agree, for example, with the overarching vision of the organization. So how would you address this then?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well you try toconvince him that what you plan is good and, of course, if he totally rejectshim then you may be forced to find somebody else would be more willing to carryout the plan.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how about some keyqualities that you look for in your team members?
Dr. Mahatar:
Passion. The team must have the same passion to do thesame as you have. That this if not asmuch maybe some degree of dedication to the work.
Jacklynn Chao:
So you mentionedpassion and dedication. Is it just thesetwo that you look for?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well, of course, theymust be knowledgeable and they must have some experience but that is apre-qualification really but once they are with you they must be people whoalready have these and you can talk to them. But along the way you can – if you know what you want and you know howto do it you can pass it on to your colleagues.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how do you have yourpassion and dedication then in order for you to pass it on to your colleagues?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well I have alwaysbeen interested in growing the country, for example, and I’ve seen othercountries and I have always told myself that if other people can do it weshould be able to do it. It’s a questionof how and the scale that we should do in order to achieve our objective.
Jacklynn Chao:
So what was yourvision when you took over and you were saying that? What scale were you looking at?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well when I beganthis country was unknown and was regarded as another of those third worldcountries which fail. So I want theimpression that we cannot succeed to be erased and for people to appreciatethat work that we are doing and that we can be successful and therefore theyshould treat us with the same respect they give to other people.
Jacklynn Chao:
Which isinteresting. So you wanted Malaysia tosucceed. So what were some of theprojects or ideas that you put in place that you think that helped you toachieve this?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well they come instages. Initially, of course, it is justto create jobs for people and once we have overcome the problem of unemploymentthen we look for other things that will be consistent with the ideal of adeveloped country. For this, of course,you need to have the necessary infrastructure first. We need to have electricity supply, watersupply, roads, bridges, railways, ports, etc. So the focus was on infrastructure. Having done that, of course, then we can do for less critical thingslike developing the towns so that they look like a more developed town. That needs the cooperation of the private sector. The main thing is that I’ve traveled a lotand I don’t see why Malaysia shouldn’t look any different from the developedcountries that I have visited.
Jacklynn Chao:
So changing thequestions up a bit, talking about risk. Of course, when you set your vision there is certain risk as well offailing. So you previously cited MIMESwhich is your Malaysian Institute of Micro Electronic System. As an organization that had the confidence toact on its foresight, know when they recognized the importance of the Internetto the future of Malaysia. So MIMES downhere took a risk. So how do you knowwhen to risk everything and when to hold back?
Dr. Mahatar:
That’s a verycritical thing because we really don’t know but we will only know if wetry. Seems the trend to us MicroElectronics is obviously growing and that there will be more new productscoming out. We felt that we were stillat the beginning of this revolution. Soonce you recognize that this is the coming trend it’s best to get in as earlyas possible. There may be – you may failbut you can think corrective actions but, of course, there is always the riskof failure.
Jacklynn Chao:
How do you convinceyour team as well though that it’s okay to actually take that little risk?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well I listen to themand I – of course, the team I select will be the team most interested inthis. So they are actually already halfconvinced when they – when I saw them.
Jacklynn Chao:
Talking a bit aboutyour leadership philosophy as well as your leadership style during your time asMalaysia’s Prime Minister you transformed a country into one of Asia’s economictigers. You commissioned projects likethe Petronas Tower. We have theMultimedia Super Corridor. Now all theseprojects put Malaysia on the global map. So why were these projects necessary you think for Malaysia to grow andalso why were these – how did this project change the perception of Malaysia tothe global outside world?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well I used to saythat when you are short to be noticed you stand on a soap box. So for me the Petronas Towers is my soap box,so to speak because then I can be tall and be seen. So you have to do something that is out ofthe ordinary so that people will notice you. When I started as Prime Minister Malaysia was quite unknown. People keep on asking, “Where is that? Where is that?” So in order to be noticed we have to docertain things that will strike people as something radical and unexpected and becauseof that they notice us.
But other way is tohave a war. Then people will beinterested in us but I kind of fought to have a war. So I have to build something that will createa lot of command, criticisms, etc and that’s the way to attract people. But that’s not the only purpose of course. We have a use for all these things. We do not build just for the grandeur ofanything. We build because we need thesethings.
Jacklynn Chao:
Why do you need thesethings?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well the PetronasTowers is something that we could afford. Petronas actually was quite rich even at that time. They could build ten of those and still notbe heard by anything because in Malaysia construction cost is very cheapbecause we don’t have earthquakes. Wedon’t have swamps or things like that. So it was within our means. Weneed to have central place in the city, in the kind of golden triangle as itsays for the business center. So we hadthese towers built and very soon after that people start building around.
Jacklynn Chao:
So it was a main focalpoint when you started?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how about – youknow you mentioned about the National Car, Proton as well. So why was it necessary you think?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well that is becauseMalaysia was very far behind in terms of engineering capability. When you build a car you are actuallyintroducing engineering skills into the country. There’ll be components that has to beproduced and they can be produced in Malaysia. It’s to stimulate the engineering industry.
Jacklynn Chao:
So what industryright now you think are the Malaysian businesses should go into to stimulatewith, of course, you mentioning China being the next economic powerhouse?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well we think that wecan compete with China certainly. Wethink that we must have high tech industries in this country but moreimportantly we had been depending upon foreign investments. That will not be coming now because ofvarious reasons. So we need to help ourlocals who have succeeded in manufacturing industries. Our locals should be given help so that theycan expand and become world class players. That I think is what is needed to be. High tech, more value added and local entrepreneurs.
Jacklynn Chao:
High tech, moreeducated –
Dr. Mahatar:
More value added.
Jacklynn Chao:
- more value addedand local entrepreneurs. So let’s touchon one first. Local entrepreneurs. Any one that comes to mind?
Dr. Mahatar:
Oh there are quite alot. There are quite a lot of successfulMalaysian industrialists now. There’sLion Group, there’s Bajia Group. There –probably the government has come up with a factory for producing microchips andthings like that. So we can expand onthose. We even have a company thatproduces leather goods like Borneo. Theyare world class and I think they need to expand.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how can theselocal entrepreneurs expand?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well sometimes theymay be having financial problems. Theymay need capital injection and, of course, sometimes tax incentives are not givento them or the local taxes are really obstruction to their expansion, thingslike that.
Jacklynn Chao:
You also mentionedhigh tech value added. What are some ofthese industry that you see in the next few years that will be upcoming?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well we have producedthings like TV and other entertainment equipments and things like that. We also need to innovate in the automotiveindustry. The trend today is towards electriccars and hybrids and all that. We needto do research and usually this have – I value and the profits will be greaterand they would ______ ______ increasing the incomes of the people.
Jacklynn Chao:
So you mentionedresearch and development as well as the need to innovate. So how do you create a culture such that thecompany would be able to innovate?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well if the resultsof the research are accepted and commercialized, having – that will be anincentive to a lot of people to spend time doing research. Sometimes even the government havingencouraged people to innovate, to do research and development after they comeup with some products or even government departments refuse to make use of themthat is a disincentive. So we need toremove this disincentives.
Jacklynn Chao:
But how about forbusinesses like they, themselves? Let’sjust say let’s put government aside. Businesses, how can business leaders create a culture to innovate youthink?
Dr. Mahatar:
They are stillsomewhat primitive I will say in that sense because they still do not see thevalue of research and development and not many companies in Malaysia spendmoney on research and development but slowly we are – the government isfocusing on this matter. I think if someincentives are given I think they will soon spend more money on research anddevelopment and be willing to risk making use of new products, commercializingthe new products in order to enhance their business.
Jacklynn Chao:
Do you think thismindset of having this culture to innovate can only start at the business likethe CEO to do so?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well mindset is veryimportant. It’s not just a CEO. If a person is willing to listen to everyoneincluding the workers on the ground they may come up with some ideas and it’s alwaysworthwhile for us to take seriously the ideas coming from below. Of course, the top must come up with theirown initiatives and ideas but never ignore suggestions coming from the staff.
Jacklynn Chao:
I like what you saidlike to find out more about ideas coming up from below. So any example that comes through your mindthat there was once that you listened for ideas that came up from below and itproved to be an absolute success?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well in the Protonproject, for example, the people who are doing – assembling the cars they comeup with some ideas which are – which makes their work much more easy and lessof a burden. For example, they introduceways of lifting heavy components so that they can be fitted in the car withouthaving to have two or three people carrying them up. They are – they position themselves in such away that one person can do the work of three people. I’ve seen that myself. I feel this is due to the experience of theworkers themselves.
Jacklynn Chao:
So which goes back toyour earlier point about keeping the team together as well?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yes.
Jacklynn Chao:
Now some of theseprojects we mentioned a bit earlier definitely changed the perception ofMalaysia globally even with the F1 Circuit as well. It really put Malaysia on the global map. Do you think that these projects haveachieved everything you hoped for or tell me more of your – what did theyachieve for you?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well lots of peopledo not understand why we have the F1, for example. They see a lot of money being spent on havingthe tracks and all that and they need the support they race every time but ifyou look beyond that the advertising value for Malaysia we want to attracttourists. Obviously, we have to tellpeople what we are, tell about how beautiful our country is. To get such things on the TV, for example, isvery costly. One or two minutes may costas much as a million ringgit. So byhaving this F1 Race, by having bicycle race this – the world is interested inthis thing and the coverage is for hours. If you work out at $1 million per minute then if you multiply by threehours and you multiply that again by 300 TV channels then you’ll know how muchvalue there is in having the Sepang Motor Race or the Tour de Langkawi.
Jacklynn Chao:
This is veryinteresting way of branding Malaysia on a global scale. What other ways have you branded Malaysia youthink?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well one of the waysis to be different from others. For adeveloping country we have been very vocal. We have precise even the big powers. That annoys a lot of people but on the other hand it also attractsattention to yourself.
Jacklynn Chao:
A bit of a rebel atheart?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well it’s very – it’sgreat fun.
Jacklynn Chao:
I’m glad you had somefun with it as well. Talk about someprojects lessons learning for business leaders about projects that perhapsdidn’t do so well.
Dr. Mahatar:
When you’re buildingsomething you have to deal with people who have no experience. At that time Malaysia had no one, almost noone with the experience of running a steel mill. It’s a very big project and, of course, theybungled things up. They didn’t know howto operate. They didn’t know how tomanage their staff and they are not familiar with the technology, etc. Because of that we fail but to me it is aninvestment in acquisition of skills and knowledge, experience.
We tried changingstaff, for example. We tried getting newtechnologies in. Eventually we foundsomeone who could manage but then the company had already incurred a lot ofdebts and this is what will be mentioned all the time. That it is a failure because of these debtsbut the fact remains that today it is a functioning industry. It’s run by Malaysians and they’re makingmoney out of it if you disregard the losses incurred by the previous people whoare running the industry.
Jacklynn Chao:
So you were sayingthat you guys acquired skills in terms of acquisition and the learning fromthat area?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah.
Jacklynn Chao:
So to businessleaders what lesson do you learn from that?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well one of the thingsthat people must learn is that when going into business the cost is much morethan what you predicted. There’ll be alot of shortcomings and you have to overcome them. It takes a long time before you can reallyget things running smoothly. So unlessyou have deep pockets you shouldn’t try to go into things that you really donot have enough knowledge about. Butthis is a government entity and it’s the government’s policy to introduceindustries, heaving industries. We knowwe took a risk. There have been failuresamong the projects but there have also been successes.
Jacklynn Chao:
Let’s talk about someof the successes. So what would you deema success?
Dr. Mahatar:
I think Proton is asuccess. Today not many automotivecompanies are free from a lot of financial problems. Some of the biggest companies in the worldhave basically collapse and needed government help but Proton is still on itsown. It is still making money althoughthere was a period when you lost money but now it’s begun to recover and it’sstill a popular brand and this acceptable for exports to many countries.
Jacklynn Chao:
So you are an advisorat Proton. So for a business leader ifyou’re managing a national company like this what do you see are the areas ofgrowth for Proton?
Dr. Mahatar:
We need to follow thetrends as mentioned just now. Todaypeople are thinking about the environment and for the environment they need touse electric cars, hybrid cars. So Protonhas to invest in research in order to be – to have the capacity to produceelectric cars and hybrid cars. So Ithink in time they will be able to compete with others as well.
Jacklynn Chao:
You know you oncesaid, “I’ve gone against the stream many, many times and it just so happens inmost instances I’ve been proven correct.” Now you’ve shown just that when you stood your ground and rejected IMF’sfinancial aid during the Asian crisis which proved to be the absolutely rightdecision because Malaysia recovered remarkably well. Where does that inner belief come from?
Dr. Mahatar:
I always question theconventional ways of doing things. Iexamine them and certainly in the case of the financial crisis when we weretold that we should have a surplus budget and we should have increased interestrates and do all kinds of things every time I examine all the advice I findthat they will have negative results. Sowe decided not to follow. But if wedon’t follow what do we do? We could notgo on as we were. So we had to think upof something. It took time but over timeonce we understand what the problem was, what is causing this crisis then wetook measures to prevent these factors from effecting our financial situation.
Jacklynn Chao:
So you say that youlike to question convention. So give mesome examples of when you questions convention.
Dr. Mahatar:
Well financial crisiscertainly is one but when we decided to have an automotive industry we weretold that no, this is not the thing for a developing country. I asked myself, “Those people who have anautomotive industry they must have started with something quite small. Now why can’t we start small the way they didand slowly grow up?” They said,“No. Unless you can have a big volumethis is not possible.” But wetried. We cut corners. We reduce costs and we becamesuccessful. Besides the government hasauthority [coughs] to protect the market. So we made use of that capacity and were producing 25,000 cars ayear. We now produce almost 200,000cars. Proton is exporting to Thailand,for example, more than 5,000 cars and that’s a big export for a small company.
Jacklynn Chao:
Have you alwaysquestioned convention? Please feelfree. Have you always questionedconvention since you were a child?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yes. I have always been quite radical in my viewsabout things. I don’t accept what I’mtold just like that even if people have been drinking all the time it doesn’tmean that it is correct. If you studyhistory you’ll find that what is good at one time will change because it aftersome time people find out the defects. The thing to do is, of course, to look for the defects in conventionalways of doing things and to devise new ways.
Jacklynn Chao:
From a business pointof view do you think that is necessary for every great business leader?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yes. It’s necessary all the time. Whatever you are doing today may not be theright thing to do in the future. So youmust think and see the defects in the systems that you are using.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how does one seethe defects? It’s so hard to be like ontop looking at – from a bird’s eye point of view.
Dr. Mahatar:
Well over time youacquire some knowledge about things and by using these acquired knowledge youknow that you can do certain things in a different way yet achieve the resultsthat you want. It’s a question of trialand error in your mind first and then make sure the – on the ground.
Jacklynn Chao:
In your early daysyou had hobbies of carpentry. Do you thinkthere is certain amount of craftsmanship as well as artistry when you aretaking a business to the top?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well it taught meabout how to overcome early glitches in whatever you do. My experience is that no matter what you aredoing the first few ones would fail but over time you develop skills and youknow where the defects are. You canovercome the defects. So even inbusiness – I have a small business now. I run a bakery.
Jacklynn Chao:
Yes, I was going toask you about that.
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah. I find that is very interesting, of course,but there are so many things to be attended to. As you go along you learn quite a lot of things.
Jacklynn Chao: So what are some of the things that youlearn while running your bakery business? Well first, why a bakery business?
Dr. Mahatar:
I think it is not theusual franchise things that we have in this country. There are franchise and all that but I noticethat the Japanese produce very good bread. Every time I go to Japan I would buy the bread. So I thought I’d bring that kind of breadmaking to Malaysia. Find, of course,trying to train locals is a problem. Youtrain them. They acquire skills and thenthey leave house. Some of them can bedishonest. So these are the differentthings that happens that you have to learn to manage.
Jacklynn Chao:
So how do you managethat?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well sometimes bytalking. Sometimes by trying to inspirethem, telling that this business is also their business because they make moneyout of it and try and get them to identify themselves with the business.
Jacklynn Chao:
How has the processbeen so far for you?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well there have beenups and downs. You need very deeppockets if you want to go into any business. It’s been four years now and we still don’t make profits yet but we haveto spend more money to expand otherwise it will not make a profit.
Jacklynn Chao:
So some of the ups inrunning this business?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well is great to beable to see people already coming to your place and accepting the prices whichare higher than the normal price because these are quality products. So the price is higher than usual. But lots of people still come. But the costs of running a high standardestablishment is much higher and we have to learn how to manage. Providing good products at the same timehaving to carry a higher cost.
Jacklynn Chao:
So what is itlike? You managed a whole country beforeand now you’re managing a bakery business. Similar? Not so similar?
Dr. Mahatar:
There are a lot ofsimilarities but of course you attend to more the negativity than with acountry. With a country you have otherpeople doing things for you but here you have to know in detail what ishappening.
Jacklynn Chao:
So but setting avision wise is it the same? Like in setting a strategy for the company asopposed to setting a strategy for the bakery business similar?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah. Quite similar. Quite similar. You have to know where you are going. You have to set a target for yourself and youhave to know the environment. You haveto have knowledge and you have to learn the skills, the technology or the wayof doing things, of managing as it were. There are lots of knowledge important inside a business.
Jacklynn Chao:
So which role do youprefer?
Dr. Mahatar:
Prefer?
Jacklynn Chao:
Which role do youprefer? Managing the country of managingthis bakery business?
Dr. Mahatar:
Both.
Jacklynn Chao:
Both? [Laughter] Since your retirement you have shown no signs of slowing down. What keeps you going?
Dr. Mahatar:
To keep alive.
Jacklynn Chao:
To keep alive?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yeah. Once you lose interest in your surroundings,you want to retire I think you will very quickly fade away. I’ve always advised people, my patientsbefore that after retirement please keep active. Of course I take the same advice. I keep active.
Jacklynn Chao:
You recently starteda blog as well?
Dr. Mahatar:
Yes.
Jacklynn Chao:
Yes? So what have you enjoyed about blogging?
Dr. Mahatar:
It’s fun to be ableto make comments about things. Sometimes,of course, to irritate people and is fun. I think it’s fun.
Jacklynn Chao:
You seem as thoughyou like to just make your life more lively as well, have a bit of fun, push alittle bit of buttons. Is that how youalways lived your life?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well you need to havea certain amount of excitement in life otherwise it becomes very boring.
Jacklynn Chao:
Just one lastquestion to wrap things up. In yourkeynote address at the Forum a strong China, implications and challengesorganized by the National Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Malaysia you saidthat, “China is set to become the most powerful economy in the future.” So which key industries should Malaysianbusiness leaders focus on in the coming years to capitalize on this?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well China is going tobe very rich. It’s going to be a verybig market. We have to find out what arethe things that they need because no country, however big can be totallyself-sufficient. There are things thatthey cannot do or they have things that they don’t have which they willneed. If we focus on the right needs ofChina then we will be able to do more trade with them because they will bericher. But it would be wrong to try andcompete with them in the same field like labor intensive industries. That is not the way to deal with China thathas become very rich.
Jacklynn Chao:
So in your opinionwhat is the need of China right now?
Dr. Mahatar:
Well they need rawmaterial. They need semi-processproducts for their own industries. Theyneed a lot of food and they have money. They need to spend the money and the amount of things they would want todo is tourism. See, they would like totravel. I think millions of Chinese willbe going all over the world, the same phenomenon we saw when Japan began todevelop. Lots of countries benefittedfrom the travels of the Japanese but if you consider that Japan has apopulation of 150 million verse China has 1.3 billion even if they are poorerbut the numbers will compensate for that.
Jacklynn Chao:
All right. Tun Dr. Mahatar it has been an absoluteprivilege to have you on the program. Thank you very much.
Dr. Mahatar:
You’re welcome.
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